Charlie Sykes warns 'democracy really dies' with 'transactional capitulation'

Charlie Sykes is never afraid to call it like it is.

The former conservative radio host, who co-founded The Bulwark before leaving earlier this year to start his own newsletter (check it out here), was one of the few in right-wing media who refused to bend the knee to Donald Trump in 2016. Earlier this week, he moderated a conversation between Liz Cheney and Kamala Harris.

Suffice to say, Sykes’ courage stands in contrast to a certain pair of billionaire media owners who put on display their cowardice this week.

I caught up with Sykes for a conversation about anticipatory obedience, whether the news media should outright refer to Trump as a fascist, why some news networks platform dishonest MAGA pundits, and more. Below is the Q&A, lightly edited for clarity.

Donald Trump has not yet been elected and billionaire media moguls are preemptively bowing to pressure. This defensive positioning is something we did not see in 2016 and 2020. What do you make of it?

You mean the craven bootlicking of the oligarchs and courtiers?

As you pointed out, it’s not just the media moguls. We’re seeing a lot of premature surrender by businessmen and politicians alike. And that’s because they’re all taking Trump’s threats both seriously and literally. The fear is palpable. Some are caving because they are cowards; others because they imagine that cringing before the throne is a smart transactional move, which is dumb, because it’s not going end well for any of us.

But this is how democracy really dies. Not in darkness, but in transactional capitulation like this.

What does it say about the current political climate in America when you have the most powerful media and tech leaders bowing to just the possibility of pressure?  

It says that we should pay attention to the warnings. If the billionaires fear a vengeful, authoritarian Trump, what about the rest of us — who don’t have power, prestige or massive penis-rockets?

That’s the reality check. The danger of authoritarianism isn’t merely theoretical. It’s happening in real time, right before our eyes.

In a few months, we could find ourselves living in a crony corporatist state governed by fear and favor. Actually, we already are, aren’t we?

Could I just say a word about Jeff Bezos? The damage he’s done to The Washington Post is hard to overstate, because it marks the decisive end of the era that began with its Watergate coverage. Bezos had to know this. He had to know what it would do the paper’s reputation and legacy. But, as I wrote in my newsletter this morning, he did it anyway. Protecting his Blue Origin Penis-Rockets was more important to him than the newspaper or democracy.

Should members of the news media themselves refer to Trump as a fascist?

Well, Trump is a fascist and it’s always good to call things by their proper names. But reporters don’t have to use the word themselves: they can simply quote Trump’s own chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, or his former chief of staff.

Or just report the guy’s words — calling migrants “vermin,” who are “poisoning the blood” of the country; his admiration for thuggish dictators; his fetish for brutality; or his threats to use the military against his fellow Americans, who he calls “the enemy within.” I could go on.

You've been very outspoken about the serious threats Trump poses to American democracy. Broadly speaking, it strikes me that those who were once in conservative media are often the most clear-eyed and direct about these threats. Why do you think that is?

I think that’s because we recognized from the beginning that this was not normal. Some folks on the left have tended to see Trump as a logical or even inevitable product of conservative politics. But we knew from the beginning that Trump represented something different — a sharp and ugly break from conservative values.

That’s not to say that the dysfunction in the GOP wasn’t a pre-existing condition. Most of us had no illusions about the crackpots, bigots, and extremists on the right; but we thought they had been confined to the far reaches of the fever swamp. Trump brought them all back. We had a front row seat to the release of the demons, so we never had an illusions about how dangerous this was.

While you've been sounding the alarm, Trump's allies have been obfuscating on his behalf. Scott Jennings on CNN drew backlash this week for deflecting when asked about Trump's apparent behind-the-scenes adoration of Adolf Hitler.

Do you think having someone like Jennings on a panel adds value to the audience? Why do networks feel the need to welcome — and in some cases pay — these dishonest voices?

You tell me. Someone like Scott Jennings adds no value to any reasonable conversation.

Of course, I’d like to see more balance in those discussions, but that shouldn’t mean platforming the trolls, hacks, or liars. I have no idea whether this boosts ratings, but it makes all the rest of us dumber, every time we have to listen to him.

You once had a long career in right-wing talk radio. The New York Times recently reported on some of the comments you had made in that life. How did you feel about that? 

Well, I thought it was a lazy bit of gotcha journalism that reminded me why so many people are disillusioned with the media. Breaking news: When I was younger and stupid, I said stupid things. I hope I’ve learned my lesson. I hope the folks at the Times do after this election, too.

Who do you believe will win in November?

I’m out of the prediction business and will be spending election night with my grandkids in France. Wake me when it’s over, will you?